AN: We were children then, basically. DR: He has said that he started doing collages in his twenties and continued throughout his life. I thought that they were voices of dead French people, but they just came from everywhere; the voices came for that poem. My favorite is how to cure an octopus: you go fishing, get an octopus, and you beat it against a rock. Descent would grow to be Notley's most widely read and taught collection after its reprinting by Penguin in 1996. I mean sometimes theres a lot of garbage but not usable garbage and so it takes me a long time to get anything made. Notley began the magazine to connect with preexisting poet friends and meet new writers on both coasts while living in the midwest. Courtesy of Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. In her essay The Poetics of Disobedience, Notley writes, I've been trying to train myself for thirty or forty years not to believe anything anyone tells me. In this apocalyptic, darkly funny, and, indeed, gutsy poem from Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), Notley indicts logic itselfthe so-called common sense that reduces poetry to gender and experience to the known and erases whole cities in the whirlwind of war. Particularly the middle one. How, in your view, did humanity get itself in such a predicament? The indeterminacy, one suspects, is the point. The artist George Schneeman, perhaps most famous for his artworks that appeared on the covers of dozens of books of poetry, did all of the covers for the magazine. And Virgil: Arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab orisItaliam, fato profugus, Laviniaque venit: Thats the opening of the Aeneid and the opening of the Iliad is: , . 83DR: Yes, right, on one level, shall we say? I wrote a poem about it in Alma, or The Dead Women (2006). New York: Granary Books, 2006. Notley's experimentation with poetic form, seen in her books 165 Meeting House Lane, When I Was Alive, The Descent of Alette, and Culture of One, ranges from a blurred line between genres, to a quotation-mark driven interpretation of the variable foot, to a full reinvention of the purpose and potential of strict rhythm and meter. I use the collages to go on without thinking with words. vol. Photo by Gezett/ullstein bild via Getty Images, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Poems of Protest, Resistance, and Empowerment, 2015 Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize Winner: Alice Notley, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World, Have Made Earth as the Mirror of Heaven, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Democracy at 10th & A: A Discussion of Alice Notleys poem "I the People", July/August 2015: "Cranberry Cranberry Cranberry". Its a reasonable question to ask about For the Ride, which begins with a challenge to the reader: Youll have to decipher whats going on, as it happens. So, there were people from all different professions at the table, a few Americans and some artistic peoplebut not that many. 3Alice Notleys poetry has evolved through many phases and experiments, as her output continues to be strong, and is increasingly studied academically. 58AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before The Descent of Alette: particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain (1987). Notley wrote extensively about pregnancy, childbirth, and child-rearing at a time when the poetry world was often inhospitable to women. These places are continuously operating as presences in your poetry, particularly the Needles of your youth, in California, the Lower Manhattan in the heyday of New York School Poetry, and the Paris of today. 1967; University of Iowa, Iowa City, M.F.A . Maggie Nelson, in her excellent book about the women of the New York School, describes Notleys later aesthetic as Fuck You the reader, fuck mainstream poetry, fuck avant-garde poetry, fuck France, fuck America, fuck daily life, fuck death, and so on.. To come back to this one, I read it as a kind of danse macabre because theres something resembling skulls going on here with the top of the fan supports. That unusual, horizontal format was probably done to fit the long lines in. Songs And Stories Of The Ghouls. Its small and a bit fragile. I havent changed much since I first began writing: In her earlier work, Notley often incorporated the speech of people around her, particularly her children (as in her masterpiece January). Theyre beautiful. There was a tribe in my home town, the Mojaves. You know Newman makes these large, abstract works. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2005. I was wondering about your thoughts on Native Americans. DR: To go on with my list: We are secretly holding the ghost dance, take care of the pines where we sleep, I have the Antlers she., (2011), from the lady with antlers; that was strange: I fell asleep, dreamed of being a woman with antlers, then when I woke up I opened. OHaras insouciance has made his work popularan antidote to the high seriousness that poetry sometimes invokes to prove its worth. In New York, the poets you met were mostly all from somewhere else (except for a few of them like Bill Berkson and Kenward Elmslie). With Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), Notley once again takes on the challenge of creating a feminist epic. Thats what Ive done ever since in different ways. That piece is from a postcard of a painting of Notre-Dame and evil spirits flying out of it. However, New York Poetry authorized one to draw from others, taking a bit from this one, and from that one, which I did for a long time. But her writing exerts intense attraction. and Laurence B. HOLLAND. My collages actually reflect the situation of overabundance. They would go out in the Hopi pueblo and get whatever snakes there were around, and a quarter would be rattlers, but in Prescott, they only used bull snakes. And its influenced by dactylic hexameter. West Branch, Iowa: Toothpaste Press, 1981. This evolution in her work was also spurred by a series of personal losses, including of her husband (the poet Ted Berrigan), her step-daughter, and her brother. My poems are full of creosote bushes, and athel trees which are extremely ugly trees that somehow got there, who knows how, maybe by way of the Colorado River which goes right by where I grew up. I would write during that high, meanwhile I would listen to Bob Dylan tapes. NOTLEY, Alice. This is probably one reason that I change form and style so much, out of a desire to find a new beginning, which is always the true beginning. He could write any time he wanted to; Im like that too. Anne Waldman says that one thing she learned at that point was that the Hindus say carry your enemy on your shoulder. Thats a counter-intuitive idea. She has long written in narrative and epic and genre-bending modes to discover new ways to explore the nature of the self and the social and cultural importance of disobedience. Some have linked Notley's geographical move to Parissince it followed a period of intensely personal writingas also marking a creative distance between herself and her poems, though her books Mysteries of Small Houses (Penguin, 1998) and Culture of One (Penguin, 2011) engage very much with personal matter. Alice Notley and Douglas Oliver Editors, The Scarlet Cabinet. 33DR: I think for the reader those part-words can function to foreground an elsewhere. We were all born in 1945, and despite a certain competitiveness at first, became good friends. Though I didnt know I was being influenced by him again when I was doing Alette. Other possible issues: goofy works, "description," dreams (the new gen), school of Susie Timmons, rejuvenation of the "found work," the "line," how to be like Elinor [Nauen] and Maggie [Dubris], how to cultivate inventiveness, strategies for dry spell, dictionaries, diaries, little plays, calligrams, tiles, left-hand margins, how to get great theories and general self-improvement. Her poems have also been compared to Gertrude Stein, as well as her contemporary Bernadette Mayer. I think all poets do that; its also something out of the tradition of folk music. When we moved to Needles, there had been a cry house which was a place where the Mojaves would go to cry when somebody died, and there was now this pile of boards: my mother was completely fascinated by the cry house, thus she would use that phrase; one of the first stories I wrote on route to the University of Iowas Writers Workshop for an MFA as a prose writer was about Needles, concerning a white man who goes to the cry house to cry. I knew him in New York, where I saw him from time to time; but after I moved here, he sought me out. In New York, the poets you met were mostly all from somewhere else (except for a few of them like Bill Berkson and Kenward Elmslie). I would give a task often based on traditional forms, or I would get an idea for a subject; and sometimes I used Kenneths books, because he was writing all those books then about teaching in nursing homes and to groups of small children. It was reissued in 2021 by the London-based small press Distance No Object. Perhaps the greatest OHara disciple in this sense is the poet Alice Notley, who, in the course of forty-plus years and forty-plus books, has repeatedly cited OHara as an influence while following her own unconventional path. At Berrigan's behest, his students at Northeastern became very active members of the local poetry scene, starting magazines and reading series. NOTLEY, Alice. DR: Also Im coming back often to that poem, In this Paradise, about the food-stamp office. Can we talk a little bit about the pop culture that figures in your work? Baby (1979). You and Ted published it in your review, AN: I started to be quite influenced by him at that point, and I think I influenced him in the writing of the book. During the winter of 197071, Notley and Berrigan lived on Long Island, where Notley wrote her first book, 165 Meeting House Lane (Twenty-Four Sonnets). I grew up among Native Americans. New York: United Artists, 1979. , in a Chicago museum. If not, boo hoo. Or, as One says, Anyones a new poem today. Parts of a Wedding. White Phosphorus Her children, Anselm Berrigan and Edmond Berrigan are both New York Poets of a younger generation. because theres something resembling skulls going on here with the top of the fan supports. Did it influence you? [1] [2] The poem is notable for Notley's extensive use of quotation marks throughout, which she has described as part of her attempt to reclaim the narrative function. David Reckford, Interview of Alice Notley,Transatlantica [En ligne], 1|2019, mis en ligne le 01 juin 2020, consult le 01 mars 2023. For instance this collage that you put on the cover of Grave of Light. Alice Notleywas born in Bisbee, Arizona, in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California. must start and will now by an awkward process make something, thinking The Man in the Long Black Coat, (1989) by Bob Dylan influenced the sound of the first two parts, which I wrote last. . 1Alice Notley is a major American poet of our day, who has been living in Paris since the early 1990s, when she moved there with her second husband, the English poet, Doug Oliver (1937-2000), because Paris was where his professorial career was taking him. . Interview with Barbara Barg, Rose Lesniak, and Tim Milk. It seemed that people like Joe Brainard were doing important, high-art collages and we could follow along without any pretention to be creating masterpieces. Watch Video Here. 62I am furious about people calling their speech against Trump the resistance. However, I have a poem, which happened to be written before Trump was elected, in an anti-Trump-type anthology thats coming out because I figure any place I can get a poem published is an occasion to seize. Detroit was burning and poetry was on fire. 96DR: Well I think of Williams as a kind of Calder mobile waiting to enter into movement. 21AN: She lost her father younger than Ted lost his. Just like I did. The jacket copy attempts to sketch the books plot: the protagonist, named One, is suddenly within the Glyph. Tracing the fight for equality and womens rights through poetry. Also in my poem Disobedience (2001), I got the title in a dream about him. In 1972, Berrigan and Notley married and moved to Chicago, where they lived until 1976. Photographer unknown, Alice Notley teaching a workshop, Saint Marks Poetry Project, c.1980, courtesy of the Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. New York: Knopf, 1998. There werent a lot of cacti where I lived, but there were a lot of bushes. It so happens that there are many of those trees, syringas, in Rochester, NY, where hes from. staying at the Htel des Grands Hommes with his surrealist friends, who wont get into the Panthon either. There were four kids, including a couple still at home. 17AN: Yes, they were the two Irish of the set. Eileen was in it, as was Bob Holman. DR: Such natural presences are important. Cathy Park Hong has some thoughts for you, and some thoughts on how best to share them. AN: It was definitely weird to get food stamps. Early on, I understood that was something you could enjoy doing out of folk music. You know Frank was this little gay guy and Ted was this big, butch, working-class guy from Rhode Island; they were both from New England so there may have been something that he caught off of Franks voice as a vibration, or of Franks way of behaving in the world (I never met him; Ted once gave me permission to call him Frank). DR: Indeed, Berrigan and OHara were both Irish names. Made a halo around our syntax and ourselves as we laughed. SoundCloud and One year at a big Thanksgiving dinner, I sat next to the poet Michel Deguy; many of his friends in Paris were met for instance when playing tennis. In this interview, she mentions other New York Poets (John Ashbery, James Schuyler, Frank OHara, Kenneth Koch, Ron Padgett, Eileen Myles, Anne Waldman, Joe Brainard, Allan Ginsberg, and Bernadette Mayer). If this poem demonstrates her abiding interest in metaphysics, it also speaks to the immediate political realities of being a woman writer. AN: I met him once, Barnett Newman, right before he died. At a certain point I wrote them down every morning; sometimes I do it more than others. What if there are structural barriers that hinder your speaking freely? Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2005. Sometimes I have in-between projects and that is a tough situation; because, I usually dont write as well then, indeed, I never quite know what to do at those moments. Somewhere, I have a photo of my father with a snake in his mouth and every year that he did it, he got a little tattoo of a star on his hand; and my mother danced the year she was pregnant with me the. His poems are totally him; his voice is unique; his sensibility is unique; and he was always basing it on something else; he wanted to be like Frank [OHara] intensely, but there was no way he could be like Frank. Notley was born in Arizona and grew up in Needles, California. Ive mostly dredged it all up, and I know how to get to it without dreaming. So I grew up as friends with Native Americans, and imbued with certain things; I was also attuned to what had happened, without knowing fully, because there was a kind of sadness among the Mojaves in my town, along with immense curiosity and interest among some Anglos. [17], Encyclopedia of the New York School Poets. Why poetry is necessary and sought after during crises. The poet reads and discusses her work. contact email: nicksturm00@gmail.com The range, audacity, and radical commitments of Alice Notley's poetry are unmatched in contemporary literature. . Edwin Denby made his name as a dance critic, but his poetry was a pivotal influence on the writers and artists of the New York School. Is that right? Making oneself now,oh One. 57, no. Photographer unknown, Alice Notleys father doing the Hopi snake dance, c. 1945, courtesy of the Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. Since I had all these poems without titles, I just randomly assigned Rons titles to the poems that ended up in. That's the future, babe. It also marks a shift in Notleys poetics away from the freewheeling chattiness of the New York School and toward something more visionary, historical, and grandly narrative. from Barnard College in 1967 and an M.F.A. How Spring Comes there was a picture of a model with antlers on her head and she was in a fashion show that day on the runwayshe was wearing antlers: it was a premonitory dream. In Notley's epic poem, The Descent of Alette, form takes many shapes. NOTLEY, Alice. 72As for my teaching at the Saint Marks poetry project, I gave assignments from week to week and I made the students bring in those rather than the poems they wrote on their own, to hold discussion without my having to criticize them too much. Having published continuously for over 50 years, Notley is one of the most important and celebrated American poets of the 20th and 21st centuries. Why hurry them along? She was the only woman in her genre and one of two in the entire graduate writing department. and Laurence B. HOLLAND. Individual Time. About two-thirds of the way through the book theres a dream that has to do with a poet that has written a poem called disobedience: the poet was Kenneth in the dream, but, such is dream logic, it was really me. Peggy went to work at two jobs for ever; then there was a point where Johnny, the youngest, had to leave home, and she had a nervous breakdown, which was when I met her. AN: I dont remember that poem, Syringa, but John tends to pick things out: he used to keep lists of his titles and then he would decide to write the poem of that title. In fact, the strong memories of starting points, including the vegetation, you just evoked link you to your New York School entourage. DR: The disturbing political and historical moment we are experiencing could disrupt many. One is making them, conscious. 91DR: You quote the powerful, assertive voice of Marianne Moore in a poem. Then I figured out how to write them, so they enter the text. 31AN: This poem was later published in Reason and Other Women (2010). Dismiss. I think I know how to do things with my voice that are entirely musical. Through polyvocal poems, vast epic sequences, and world-building vision, Alice Notley 's work for decades has broken through to new possibilities of genre, lyric, contact, and time. At Night the States He earned an MFA in poetry from the University of Alabama, An introduction to one ofthe most lasting styles of mid-century American poetry. Then I found all the spots around the world in them and talked about them as being set in the world as a whole, saying that was a fitting poetry for now, when were all crossing borders all the time: spanning geography is the main event today, because there are so many people. Alice Notley, Untitled, 1998. I can do that with my speaking voice in poems. My mother was always curious and interested. DR: Apart from what happens during the performance, can writing poetry be like a dance? DYLAN, Bob, The Man in the Old Black Coat.. She lives and works in Paris. They really like, DR: Yes, right, on one level, shall we say? AN: He had no trust in his own ability to write things out, while he had faith in his ability to find things. 101AN: Well, thats what a lot of us got from her; Im heavily influenced by Gertrude Stein, having had two Stein periods; in the second one in the mid-1980s, I figured out a thing about repetition: that, if you repeated, you could pause long enough inside the repetition to figure out what to say next, which she was probably doing constantly. Particularly the middle one. Theres a poem where you talk about meeting Teds mother. Actually, when I read, , high-school students get similarly entranced. Batsford Ltd., 1945. The sense of something escaping is well illustrated by your poem, Where Leftover Misery Goes, among others. 119At that stage, Allen Ginsberg, a really fine person, was extremely supportive. Recent books continue to be at least somewhat character centered. However, I dont know what I was listening to when I was beginning to write The Descent of Alette. Theyre beautiful. DR: Yes, those are full of imagery: evidently, they have all kinds of signification. Especially in the way that lucid means shining and bright. Like somebody live in some city. 112AN: Ah, thats from Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), from the lady with antlers; that was strange: I fell asleep, dreamed of being a woman with antlers, then when I woke up I opened Le Monde, lo and behold, there was a picture of a model with antlers on her head and she was in a fashion show that day on the runwayshe was wearing antlers: it was a premonitory dream. I was one of his friends in Paris. And the past & future & I born too. [14] Several poems from her 2007 collection In the Pines were set to music by the Canadian indie pop band AroarA for their 2014 Polaris Music Prize-nominated 2013 EP In the Pines[15] and in Fall 2014, a conference celebrating Notley's work was held at the Bay Area Public School in Oakland, California. I had met him in 1969, then we stayed friends. The Goddess who created this passing world. Young poets on the Chicago scene regularly hung out with Notley and Berrigan at their home and many followed the couple back to New York City in the late 70s. [4] Notley's second book, Phoebe Light, was published in 1973 by Bill Berkson's Bolinas-based press Big Sky.[5]. As she writes in the preface, one of the books few footholds, This poem goes pretty far, and terrifies me, but it should be read for pleasure., Although Personism tells us that simply acting like ourselves is enough to make poetry, its lesson is also surprisingly difficult to absorb. I didnt know any French; I had no French when I came here, basically, in my late forties. The first time I went there I was completely humiliated by the people working there. Ive never thought of her as a poet: sometimes I think she doesnt know anything about poetry at all. Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. I went down there is simple, but it is rich. Culture of One sees Notley returning to the desert of her childhood to tell the story of one of its residents. She was educated in the Needles public schools, Barnard College, and The Writer's Workshop, University of Iowa. In an important essay titled The Poetics of Disobedience, Notley says this shift began with her book The Descent of Alette (1992). Among the most powerful moments in her work are the ones marked by her teaching poetry workshops in New York and her self-publishing the book. Aeneas founded a city, Rome. His poems are totally him; his voice is unique; his sensibility is unique; and he was always basing it on something else; he wanted to be like Frank [OHara] intensely, but there was no way he could be like Frank. 99: Eileen Myles.. The Goddess Who Created This Passing World 10When I was a young poet, I couldnt figure out what to title anything, and I discussed this with Ted, who said: You should write to Ron Padgett and get a list of titles, which I did; he just made up all these titles for me. Did it influence you? Nina Baym. 66AN: I started to be quite influenced by him at that point, and I think I influenced him in the writing of the book New Addresses: Poems, published in 2000. Disobedience. Disobedience. I went downstairs. I dreamed about the children afterwards, you know, there were children being chased in this building. Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the Mojave Desert. NOTLEY, Alice. 34AN: I met him once, Barnett Newman, right before he died. Was she of an Irish sort? In this emblematic early piece, the text spills across the page. Alice Notley, Polaroid photo taken in Needles, CA, c.1985, courtesy of the artist, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. Grin, laugh unbecomingLiving at the bottom of the water mayhave been obvious all the time. Her book, Coming After (2005), collects a series of sensitive essays she wrote about her own poetry and that of others from her poetic milieu. Where Leftover Misery Goes. Robert Haas, Guest Editor. This is "THE PROPHET BY ALICE NOTLEY" by John Galvin on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them. The two worked on two magazines together, Gare du Nord and Scarlet, and self-published a compendium of their own books, The Scarlet Cabinet, which contained Notley's Descent of Alette. 92AN: She was great. But people often say that Marianne Moore writes with the whole sentence. There was a tribe in my home town, the Mojaves. And Virgil: (2011): she is a female character who suffers a kind of erasure, despite being the great queen of Carthage. Reading The Descent of Alette was like listening to Alice Coltrane for fourteen hours while riding the NYC subway at 3AM in the 1980s. Education: Barnard College, New York, B.A. Like the Hollywood marriage in this poem, Notley and Berrigans creative partnership was loving, mutually enriching, and, as she shows us here, a bit magical. Is from a postcard of a painting of Notre-Dame and evil spirits flying out of folk music,.! Ohara were both Irish names you, and you beat it against a rock happens during the performance, writing., 2005 titles, I dont know what I was doing Alette about meeting Teds mother at least character. ; University of Iowa, Iowa: Toothpaste Press, 2005 was like to... 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